Interview:1993-FIST

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''FIST I understand you're releasing a Crisis CD ?

'''DOUG There's some studio songs and live tracks that were never released. I was going to add these to the CD. It's peculiar, whilst listening to them, I was in Paris, and the Queen drove by with the Duke of Edinburgh. I looked up, there were no crowds, just a phalanx of motorcyclists with them. I couldn't hear anything apart from all this primitive Punk Rock and there she was. It was just like a Sex Pistols advert. After that I thought, “I don't want to do it .” There's this overriding feeling of horribleness about the group. I feel very unsure about it. Not only that, but I have to contact all the other people, outside of Tony of course.

''FIST Did you fall out then ?

'''DOUG It's not that, but fifteen years of leading one's life without having seeing them. It seems irrelevant. I don't want to devote energy on something, that was so long ago. There was also a bad aura about the group, if that doesn't sound too stupid. I dislike handling it. I was thinking back over the archive material and I just remember bad things happening. I don't want to resurrect that. It may not manifest itself.

''FIST What were your intentions with Crisis?

'''DOUG It's fairly straight forward. We wanted to be a political Punk group. Tony and I were both involved in far left politics. Rather than just being a pop group that espoused politics, like The Clash, who at the time we thought were genuine, we wanted to be involved in things, and do songs. We thought it was a good idea to do this "agit prop group", and it would be even better if we were good at it. We wanted to change the world. At the end of it all, both Tony and I realised that we only wanted to change it because we couldn't stand it. Really it was an inverted form of Fascism. We were always being called Red Fascists by the Labour or Communist Party. They were probably right. I realise that I couldn't change other people, only myself and those close to me. That was the end of the matter. Now I think, if I don't like them then fuck 'em. I'm not wasting my life on those people. Back then I didn't like the state of the world, that's why I was involved in Trotskyist politics. I felt quite serious about it from 17 until 23. Eventually I felt disillusioned working with the people involved, because they were not good people to have in control. Basically I see humanity as a seething mass of Insanity that has to be kept in check. It's not basically good. It's not changed by society, it can influence certain aspects of it. I also think you can be born bad.

''FIST Bad, is a cultural idea though.

'''DOUG Yes but if I drew a chopper and cut off your arm without any reason, without feeling any remorse, that's bad. The things I've seen in Croatia are bad, and beyond my imagination. It's not an abstract quantity, it exists, in whatever Nationality. Having seen a war... when groups play with that imagery, I find it kind of nothing now, pathetic. I don't think your record covers are shocking! It's an everyday occurrence for some people and the ordinariness of it makes it more vile. Slitting open somebodies guts and torturing them just because they are a different Nationality is insane. It's real, it's not a game or an art event, just disgusting. Even the idea of upsetting the order of the day is dangerous. The order of the day is the best we are going to get. Unfortunately it probably doesn't control people enough, in terms of the wrong people. The fact that Fear stalks the streets these days.

''FIST How did Death In June come about from Crisis ?

'''DOUG When we split, Tony and I said we would work again but that we needed a break. We started up some months later. Then Patrick came along. Our first gig I think, was at Mallet Street with the Birthday Party. Death In June were avowed not to play political benefits. Crisis played more than it's fair share of them. In 1981 all that strong feeling about things had gone. We were completely disillusioned with politics by then.

''FIST The lyrics deal with pathos. Is this how you see them ?

'''DOUG People get the weird impression that I'm looking back to a mediaeval time when everyone was chivalrous and noble, or thinking I'm looking at Nazi Germany where everything was wonderfully bleak, austere and committed. It's not like that at all. If the present isn't as what it could be in my personal life, then maybe that pathos comes through. I don't analyse things like that. If I think I've articulated truthfully then I'm happy. I don't sit down and write : 'Things ain't what they used to be. What can I write today?" It's a bit sad that, isn't it? The best group I've never be in is "The Pet Shop Boys". It would make much more sense. When I'm fifty I'm still going to be asked if I'm still a Nazi Occult Child Molester. I will never be deemed as Joe Normal. It haunts me wherever I go in the world. I'll never be able to sit with my memoirs and nice cosy friends around a fireside one evening and go, "look at these press cuttings, aren't they lovely". It's too late, the die is cast and I'm quite happy about it..

''FIST Are you a misanthropist?

'''DOUG Some people literally, are bred for work, and that is what they are good for and breeding. That's why we've had a surfeit of not very good people over the past say, seventy years, especially during this decade. The Two World Wars have culled too many of the good. We are left with the rest, hence the gradual disintegration of the soul of humanity. The useless people have overtired in this century. The huge mechanisation has meant there is no real need for drone beings anymore. The wrong type of person tends to breed like rabbits and they go on and on. Now we are surrounded by this untermensch, ignorant lumpen people. Marx recognised this, the problem breeds. The order as it stands is cockeyed.

''FIST Hasn't the past has always been like that ?

'''DOUG Apparently yes, but I don't know. I can't remember living in the past so I don't know what it was like. It seems to be particularly bad at the moment. It's not just me saying these misanthropic quotes. I hear lots of people saying it. It is common place, so there must be something happening now, that people are taking note of. Nothing is being done about it.

''FIST There is always a problem as to who is going to be doing the culling ?

'''DOUG I think no one is capable of doing anything really. Basically this country has turned into an illiterate septic isle hasn't it ?

''FIST Maybe it always has been though ?

'''DOUG I remember literacy being better some years ago. As an example, people can't add up in shops without a calculator. Even then they can't do it very well. When they write the bill out, a monkey may have written it. This is on the news anyway, the decline in education. I spent most of my time away from school. I loathed it but I had a natural leaning to educating myself. I didn't like being taught anything. The only good years I had there, were the last three, when I knew I was going to get out. Then I enjoyed myself a little bit more. I spent most of my time away. It's to do with self motivation. A lot of people aren't self motivated, they like being stupid. If you like being stupid, in the darkness about things, it doesn't necessarily mean about bad adding up or bad spelling, you should make an effort about it. Whatever crap job I've been in, I've always tried to do it as best as possible, and I've had plenty of them before doing this. There's no self respect anymore, there's no wanting to do anything good. It's part and parcel of their problem, and mine, because I have to live with it. There are constant complaints about quality of work. Things could be infinitely better.

''FIST In what way though ?

'''DOUG People could be nicer, more aware of their life force.

''FIST There are vestal interests in stulti-fying intelligence.

'''DOUG Yes, but I come from an ordinary working class background and I seem to be able to think about other things. I don't mean the working class as a whole. I'm talking about the mass as a whole. They are particularly stupid, the masses. That extends throughout the classes in this country. They all love being in their own ghetto.

''FIST Having lived in an environment in Cambridge and seeing the middle and upper classes I don't think they have much to offer, intelligence wise.

'''DOUG Exactly, they're just as horrible.

''FIST To think that those people have power over some aspect of our lives.

'''DOUG It extends across the range. That is why I say it is the mass and not the proletariat, per se. It's right across society, that's why it's worrying.

''FIST It was like that before the First World War surely ?

'''DOUG I don't know. I don't think we are a country now capable of building an Empire that ruled over half the world. There must have been something there to achieve that. This want for exploration and the unknown. I can't see any of that in our so called leaders or anyone who would dare attempt to think about something like that, regardless of the pros and cons of it.

''FIST A lot of it was spearheaded by individual companies such as the East India company.

'''DOUG At least those people were there and doing that kind of thing. I can't think of Reebok doing it. Although I suppose they maybe doing it in their own sort of way. That's interesting, even now. On the adverts on TV, it's either Reebok or Nike saying "Don't play, compete." Win no matter whatever. Great, it's the complete antithesis of what sport is supposed to be about. You may as well cheat and fuck them. As long as you're wearing our shoes it doesn't matter. That's exactly what I hate about society. It's what goes down really great though.

''FIST The spirit of the eighties.

'''DOUG It's the spirit of now, the nineties, the eighties were the lead up.

''FIST How did you break out of that situation ?

'''DOUG Because I'm a naturally soulful, spirited type of person who rises above everything else. (LAUGHS)

''FIST So it's something you're born with, genetics ?

'''DOUG Either that or soul implantation. I believe that life forces are flying around all the time any way. Once you're brnm I believe that something flies into that person. I can see bits of me in my parents but not a lot. I wouldn't say genetics, but I don't know anything beyond my parents, like my grandparents. One was killed in the First World War and the other disappeared. I only know about my immediate family. In my experience some people can be so different from the others. I think there is a strong case for soul implants, for want of a better word. It enters you because you are the next available device.

''FIST It takes things away from free will. It's a pre ordination of people.

'''DOUG I believe in destiny, within which you do have a degree of free will, but only so much. "The Wall of Sacrifice" was named when I was in a dream. I was taken into a house that was on fire, where one of the walls was covered in ice, through which there was frozen blood. I could see the brickwork through the blood. As it melted, depending how it went, that would be how your life would go. Therefore it depended how you directed the flame. That was your life, the "Wall of sacrifice". It corresponds to the "Web of Wyrd" which is the North European idea where you are stuck within a web, but you can struggle to get out of it. There is an element of free will within that.

''FIST You use a lot of Fascist imagery. How does that fit in with what you are saying ?

'''DOUG Such as ?

''FIST The Horst Wessel song on the "Brown Book".

'''DOUG That was really used as a trap. All the stuff had been going on. No matter what I did I was accused of being this, that and the other, by the music press. I thought, alright, let's go all out. On that album I went for contradictions. On "Brown Book" first of all, the title was taken from a book printed by the East Germans, which listed all the top Nazis and ex SS men that were in power, either in govemment or in the big industrial firms working in West Germany. I think in other countries they had the "Grey Book", and the "Black Book" in Russia, or they did have. I chose to call it that because as you know, Brown Book equals Brown shirts, but in fact it's an East German Communist book. In a similar way I took an album title from the film "The World That Summer". This deals with the dilemma a part Jewish, Hitler Youth, who finds himself, belonging to neither. Throughout the film he becomes nullified to everyone, having no emotions at the end. There is a segment of the film where a Brown Shirt, this is 1936 post purge of 34 (Night of the long Knives where Hitler and the SS annihilated the Socialist element of the Nazi movement). He's talking about a variety of matters and taking an idiotic stand on some things that were completely anti SA and much more SS. He accused the SS of being homosexuals which is what the SA were infamous for. That was juxtaposed, that speech, by the half Jewish grandmother saying that life was like jumping from one ice float to another, with each jump they get smaller and smaller. The end is inevitable. I mixed those two things with the Horst Wessel song. It was a contradiction. That's why I used it. It became banned in Germany like nobodies business (LAUGHS). That's because people didn't listen to it fully and hear all the other voices going on. I like the idea of people falling into that trap. It's more filmic. It's the only time I've been deliberately provocative. I thought of that, because an incident did occur when I lived in Tuffnel Park. A man came in one evening and was so taken in by my knowledge, he did an impromptu version of "Horst Wessel", in German. It was one of those mystical experiences in real life. I thought I'm going to have to get that down some time. He does it at parties, his party trick. Which parties, who am I to say ? (LAUGHS)

''FIST What about other images like the Deaths Head ?

'''DOUG The six is taken for June, and the Death's head is a sign of commitment, one vision, nothing else will be tolerated. It seemed the strongest symbol. It's been used throughout Europe for a long time, not necessarily monopolised by the SS. They are the most famous exploiters of it in the recent past. The British Army used it and the Yugoslav Chetniks. It's a very dramatic, easily recognised symbol. I think it's beautiful.

''FIST A reference to nihilism ?

'''DOUG I think I have an empathy to Fascism, although politically I am a libertarian. It was imagery Death In June were akin to. Therefore it was embraced.

''FIST What do you mean by emotional empathy to fascism ?

'''DOUG Well, I understand it. It is probably the most natural politics of humanity

''FIST Do you think so ?

'''DOUG Well people fight against it.

''FIST Have you read the book by Willhelm Reich ?

'''DOUG No it's a load of old rubbish.

''FIST You wouldn't agree that the family is the nucleus....(of Fascism).

'''DOUG No absolutely not. It's just a breeding place. It's not the nucleus of anything. I like the idea of the Kibbutz system. It depends on the people. The only thing the family is the nucleus of is unhappiness as far as I am concemed. It's just another part of society. The individual is the nucleus of everything, such as the soul, the spirit and god. I am pleased the Americans burnt his books. He was a homophobic nutcase. The only psychologist I have any time for is Jung.

''FIST Reich said that it is in the family that people learn to accept authority unquestioningly and based on irrational authority.

'''DOUG Do you think that is good or bad ?

''FIST in the way that most individuals are stifled within the structure, I think it's bad.

'''DOUG What was he suggesting otherwise ? Just to go out and fuck as many women as possible.

''FIST That could be a practical conse-quence of his philosophy

'''DOUG I don't think Reich had any big insights to offer, apart from a name. I wonder what he called his third child ?

''FIST He's coming back into fashion with the New Age ideas.

'''DOUG New Age is not very new age at all. I've heard some of the things and they're totally ridiculous and reactionary. Peasant mentality, I don't want to go around wearing a dress with crosses on the front. I probably did that in a previous life (LAUGHS). Thomas Hardy wrote novels about me (LAUGHS)

''FIST What about the song you did about Klaus Barbie ?

'''DOUG He was a symbol. We were doing a few dates in France and we went to play in Lyon, where he was imprisoned. The French Resistance make themselves out to be Angels. They were like the Gestapo to heir own kind. They executed a quarter of a million people after the war, which is more people than he was claimed to have killed. When we played in Paris and Lyon there were these odd rumours that we had tried to contact Klaus Barbie in prison, and he inspired the song. I was going to use him as a symbol anyway. Everyone has the potential to be a Klaus Barbie, he was fairly clinical about things. He wasn't as bad as some torturers could be, when you start hearing stories about El Salvador, Croatia, Bosnia or Northern Ireland. That is happening all around us, now. He's just a symbol of all that and also because of the weird rumours that were going around Lyon, which were not true. There were a few other things on the news at the tune. Humanity is a wonderful subject isn't it, worth cultivating ?

''FIST Do you think you were successful in the way you used Fascist Imagery ?

'''DOUG Yes, Death In June has always done it with impeccable good taste, and with a proper understanding of the aesthetics and the symbolism behind such things. Obviously people have fallen into the trap of taking it on a surface value. That is their problem. I've never been interested in appeasing people who want to accept that black is black and white is white. There is a spectrum in between.

''FIST What do you find interesting about the sexual aspect of uniforms. They seem to be a feature on some of your albums.

'''DOUG I find uniforms sexually attractive. There is an inherent power in then anyway. That runs throughout people's strands of sexuality. People are attracted to them.

''FIST But aren't people indoctrinated into that Power aspect of them, equating it with sexy ?

'''DOUG I think one's attractions within sex are always in flux. I know that my tastes within my sexual bracket alter, and have changed. Things that I never believed I would find attractive. I'm not sure about that, I don't know. I think one can be inherently attracted to things and not necessarily indoctrinated. I think there is something deeper where it strikes a key. It's why some people like rubber or leather. Rubber does nothing for me. I find the smell revolting, even the smell of a condom I have to wash off my hands. I can understand it about leather. People get excited by all kinds of stuff. One of the big eye openers to me was, basically I'm gay, picking up one of these big butch Irish lorry drivers, built like a brick shithouse. A combination between an SS man and an IRA Provo. He took his clothes off and was wearing women's underwear. The image was blown completely. He couldn't have sex without wearing them. People's sexuality to me is a never ending source of enlightenment. (LAUGHS). I don't know how it gets to that position.

''FIST Well uniforms are equated with power, as is sex.

'''DOUG Yes, I agree with you there. It took me a long time to come to terms with that, because I never really thought like that. It is a question of subjugation and domination, always. Those words can be taken out of context.

''FIST The extreme version being rape.

'''DOUG That is total domination.

''FIST Whereas SM has an element of trust

'''DOUG That's the only time I've been involved in anything like that is where there has been complete trust and understanding.

''FIST I'm sure there has to be otherwise you'll never be sure you're going to get out of it alive.

'''DOUG (LAUGHS)

''FIST The melodies you use seem almost childlike in their structure. Is this something that you worked upon ?

'''DOUG It just happens. You work to a degree on some things and not on others, whatever is appropriate for a particular song

''FIST Have you deleved in your own past?

'''DOUG Not particularly, it's just some-thing that takes it's natural course. Not inten-tionally have I ever thought of childhood at all. It's just things I like. What were you thinking of, some-thing like "Rocking Horse Nighr ?

''FIST Most of the songs seem to have simple rhythms.

'''DOUG Maybe those are the most effective things. It leads back to "less is more..." To keep to the purity of whatever you're trying to do, or articulate. That's one of the reasons why we've resorted more to the Acoustic Guitar, just to keep to that spirit. If it does sound childlike, it sounds an immediate note. It could sound crap because it is so simple (LAUGHS).

''FIST Why do you use the Acoustic guitar instead of the Electric ?

'''DOUG I think it was always there. On the "Guilty Have No Pride", it's just me on the Acoustic Guitar playing that riff and Tony playing bass with a load of echo on. I've always liked that sound, because it is emotive in itself. I think one of the best soundtracks artists ever is Ennio Morricone. Something dramatic could be one string being plucked, then suddenly, a couple of bells. When I began to work on my own, it began to lean towards that. The first album I did like that was "The World That Summer", which was more layered and produced. If you start adding too many things, it becomes more cluttered and swamps the original thought. One of the best songs I think I have ever written, is "Fall Apart". That's my vocal and guitar. I went away to think what I could do to it, but there wasn't much more. I listened to it on the roof out here at 2.03 p.m. and a London Station played "To Drown A Rose". I sat there thinking, I recognise this tune, and then I realised it was me. I think it was the last time I was ever played on the Radio. It must be a sign.

''FIST With the last album there seems to be a more positive feeling about the work. Don't you think so ?

'''DOUG You could have said anything and I have to respond to it. I don't write it from any one particular point of view. I see it as a culmination of three years work, and my best to date. I was very happy with it. The months November 91 until 93 have been the busiest year the band has known. It's also been the best.

''FIST In what way ?

'''DOUG In terms of doing things again. I rejuvenated the group after a quiet period, and hard times in retrospect. This is outside of the things I had been doing with Boyd Rice with "Music, Martinis, and Misanthropy". I wasn't sure if I could do something new again. It happened, and I thought I did very well. I hadn't played the CD for months until they played it in a Radio Station, in Prague. It gave me that feeling of detachment, as if I hadn't done it. It seemed fresh and I liked it. I don't know how to respond to "fatalism". I'm probably more fatalistic now than ever be-fore. Where's the jolly optimism then ? (Laughs)

''FIST In the lyrics ?

'''DOUG There's nothing wrong with jolly optimism. I didn't think I could write anything like "TRUE WEST" or whatever they are called.

''FIST No it's hardly that. Some of the lyrics "Because of him the World has got a friend".

'''DOUG They were just straight lifts from Jim Jones and the Tabernacle Choir. I distorted the lyrics somewhat. Look what happened to them. That's optimism for you.

''FIST A reference again to the idea of having a double meaning within your work.

'''DOUG I always have done. I was going to write a three track EP single that I was to put in one of their reissued LP's. I'd thought about it. Then I decided it was a weird thing to do, to get further involved. Those ideas eventually sprang into the new album, "Little Black Angel", "He's Disabled ", "Mourners Bench".

''FIST "Little Black Angel", also seems to have a positivity about it.

'''DOUG I don't know. Life just is, or not, at the end of it.

''FIST Your live performances seem more prolific. Why is that ?

'''DOUG This year I've done the most for years. I said no for so long, it just made a change to say yes. D.I.J. have never done massive tours. I just had the feeling it would be OK.

''FIST So that's it for the foreseeable future ?

'''DOUG There are so many other things to do. The thought crossed my mind about going to America. Most of Europe has been covered, apart from Belgium and Holland, which is unfortunate. I don't want it to become ordinary. 93 is going to be a strange year and I think we all have to watch ourselves. I don't want to leave myself open to attack. If people didn't see us, they had their chance. I was pleased we did them. For me it was an interesting experience. Most of the time it came over quite well.

''FIST Even in this country ?

'''DOUG This country has an endemic disease of problems. I'd rather not talk about this country. I've always felt a stranger here. That is the way I prefer it.

''FIST What about the best response ?

'''DOUG Wherever we've been, it's always been surprising.

''FIST Are you getting a younger generation of people to see you ? •

'''DOUG It's mixed. The unfortunate thing about live concerts is that I don't like meeting many people. There are people I feel at ease with straight away, and there are others who have been in contact with me via the mail order service, so if they say their name, we already know each other in some respect. There are others who think they know you through your work and even on this very limited scale of being known, it can get very creepy and I detest it. I hate being touched by people who think you're something special and want an answer from you about a problem. That's another reason I want to get out of that.

''FIST The problem of being in the public eye.

'''DOUG I've never really been in the public eye. I liked the idea that people didn't recognise me at Prague airport because I didn't have a beard. I said to them that it comes and goes. It was only for one photo session but it had stamped itself indelibly on their mind. They know who you are on stage. As much as there are nice people to meet, there also bunches of creeps. I don't like being accessible to people.

''FIST Is the idea that people write to you important ?

'''DOUG In a way, I prefer it if they buy something

''FIST A monetary relationship ?

'''DOUG Yes, not a mother and father one. I don't like it if people want to get close and explain things in letters. I'm not here to act as a psychiatrist. I don't write to them and ask for help.

''FIST Is the music a catharsis for you ?

'''DOUG Possibly, I don't know. The lyrics mean different things in shapes and forms when I was writing them. I know when certain words were written, and where they fit into songs. I take a long time getting to the lyrics.

''FIST So they are constantly reworked ?

'''DOUG No, not reworked.I'd been writing a stack of new ideas. With the last album I'd been writing for three years wherever I'd been. I'd done a lot of travelling during that period. Nothing was making sense until the beginning of last year. One group of words started acting as a magnet for others. Then it began to become a coherent idea. "Golden Wedding of Sorrow" came out of looking out of a hotel window in Paris and remembering something I'd written in Adelaide. I've got a whole stack of things now that I've written that are just lines. There's no time to write anything new at the moment, it's just not there.

''FIST You work from a few key ideas ?

'''DOUG Sometimes I get a few words inside my head and I write them down. To me the way I work is like a long handed form of cut up. If I'm hearing things in my head it's like a radio station. You go through the wave lengths and not hear anything complete. There are some days when the aerial is doing something and I'm picking up bits and pieces. It's like a broken telex machine, where I'd pick up parts of the message, then it's good. There again that could be because I was drinking too much or something, so the brain's broken (LAUGHS).

''FIST So it's the subconscious working ?

'''DOUG Yes, probably, the soul, some kind of exorcism. I don't like analysing it too closely, because it is tantamount to defilement. It's like having a child and cutting it to bits to see how it works. Then I probably would, as a well known Nazi Satanist Occult Child Molester. In fact I've done it several times. (LAUGHS)

''FIST Your last gig was meant to be filmed by Central TV wasn't it?

'''DOUG We were joking about the "NON Event" at the beginning, how little did we know. Thank god for the Greek Restaurant and The Torture Garden. How perverse life can be.

''FIST What happened ?

'''DOUG The gig was arranged for some time. Boyd was coming over and we were going to tie that in with a number of other things. I didn't know that he had been approached in America by Central TV to do a documentary based on the other side of the story, as regards Satanists. I'm not too interested in Satanism. (This occured due to Boyd's connections with the "Church of Satan"). He hadn't told us this when he arrived. Suddenly Central TV were phoning up World Serpent and our rehearsal studio, wanting to come down. They were very intrusive, I didn't like being involved with them at all. However Boyd said this was his chance to get his message over to a hundred million people, so we tagged along with it. Behind our back, Central TV had been approaching The Grand, saying all sorts of strange things, trying to make it spicy for them to film. As per usual there are always people phoning up before we play, as with The Powerhaus and The Venue, trying to make them cancel. The Grand was getting worried about the Nazi Satanist Occult Individuals doing a show about eating babies and killing Jews on stage. Having spoken to them we allayed those fears. Unfortunately the deciding factor was that their licence renewal was coming up three days after the event. Then there was a bomb scare, which they didn't believe in. This phone crank had become so hysterical due to the seriousness, they didn't tell the police because they didn't feel it was in their interests. At the end of the day it was business dictating, not some crank scaring us. We decided that because Central TV had something to do with the muck up of the event, they should provide some refreshments for the people who hadn't been notified that the event was cancelled. Fortunately we were able to organise another venue and so Non played a shortened set at an S&M Club. As there was no sound check Death In June were not able to play. I think we came out of it in victory. It probably will become a mythical event.

''FIST Why do you think you are dogged by this controversy ?

'''DOUG There are a lot of stupid people. Morrisey is being dragged through the papers now. One minute he is the top of the pile, now he's being bothered by the speckly individuals. I think people are begging for it. Death In June is a good group and any group of substance is dogged by controversy. They can't really buttonhole us and say we are this or that, which annoys a lot of people. The fact that we have existed for twelve years free of music business rubbish. I think it angers the simple people.

''FIST Is it deliberate ?

'''DOUG No, you can't dictate how your nature is. It's me as an individual.

''FIST So you chose not to be a star ?

'''DOUG I am a star, a black star (LAUGHS), in some ways.

''FIST The ethos of the group seems anony-mous.

'''DOUG Most "stars" are such jerk offs. Why should I want to be in the same stable as them. I'm not a commodity. I don't have any interest in those people. What a waste of time. There's not much musically now that's going on. Nothing has changed in the past twenty years. Except for the lycra cycling shorts I may as well be watching Top Of the Pops from 1972.. I hated it then, I hate it now. Nothing has really changed. That big hardcore group Faith no More doing "Easy", what scum tuckers. I much prefer to go shopping.

''FIST How does your sexuality tie in with the music ?

'''DOUG I think it has to reflect it. I think our music is very masculine sounding. It's not a deliberate ploy. I assume it's conveyed in the way I articulate. I don't write something and think; "Oh that's a homosexual chord ". (LAUGHS)... Once people know the scenario then they can interpret it. It's like knowing Genet. It made me appreciate his work more. It makes it more interesting for me.

''FIST It's not exactly stereotyped Gay Culture though.

'''DOUG Gay culture is as diverse as any other sub culture. Clones wiggling their hips to high energy is just the public face.

''FIST It wasn't obvious to me.

'''DOUG If you're not looking for it then you're not aware. It's probably Nazi songs of Homosexual Despair and the Devil (Laughs).

''FIST There does seem to be this undercurrent of Gay Artists within the genre you operate, ranging from Coil to Marc Almond. Is that reflected in your audience ?

'''DOUG I don't know that much about them. Usual bunch of Homosexual Nazi Occultists. Wherever you go, from Japan to Zagreb, they're always there. A disease that has spread, a virus that is growing.

''FIST By your nature you'll never be able to re produce.

'''DOUG We're like amoebas, we reproduce ourselves. The same posters in different countries, same collection of Sutcliffe Jugend tapes. WE ARE EVERYWHERE

''FIST What role does mysticism play ?

'''DOUG An everyday role when you beckon it forth. It comes in on those levels, but you know when it is happening.

''FIST How do you define it, something from within or without ?

'''DOUG Both, the most easily definable is when it is without, when other people see the same thing. Mystical things can happen any time or any place such as sitting on a bench in a park. Towards the end of the German tour I was hearing voices everywhere. I was getting distinctly strange and people were passing comment. I actually nearly killed them all towards the end. It's not a mystical experience as such. A few odd things had been happening. I'd been hearing people talking to me and touching me but no one was there. I was getting touchy ! I fell asleep in the van, twenty miles from Hamburg. However in my dream I was still awake in the van. All of a sudden the lights had gone out and the driver had dozed off... This happened in seconds, so that real life and the dream had become blurred. We were going to crash, so I jumped up and grabbed hold of the wheel and the driver in the dream. The trouble was that I was doing it in real life as well, with my eyes shut, screaming. The whole van was going everywhere. I had hold of the driver and the steering wheel. Everyone was in sheer teror. Fortunately they fought me off. To me that was a near death experience. They said afterwards that they had never seen me move so fast. (LAUGHS)... And they thought I wasn't weird. The last mystical experience I had was being cruised by a Catholic Priest at Heathrow Airport. I was totally amazed by his face and his lack of inhibitions. He was in his dog collar, with a family waiting outside. I'd gone there to meet a friend and he just bowled me over. Out of that "Hollows of Devotion" was written. I couldn't get him out of my mind. I bought these Catholic papers to see if I could communicate with him, he made such an impression. Ken Thomas, our engineer couldn't get over it when I told him. That was a mystical experience, literally, or was it just a sordid one and I made it into mystical ? He ended up being on the same plane as my friend going to Rome. The best things come out when you are emotionally traumatised. It can either be good or bad. If you go through it enough times you know how to call upon it. I never sit down and think now is the time to write a song.